[Athen] [EXTERNAL] - InDesign and Reading Order (not tag order)

[Top Tech Tidbits via athen-list]

Hi Robin,

 

Thank you so much for the detailed follow-up, and great sleuthing! Your results absolutely reinforce the direction we've all been leaning, and it’s encouraging to see how both your WebAIM outreach and hands-on testing have validated what ChatGPT and others have flagged regarding InDesign's layer-based reading order behavior.

 

The confirmation that Acrobat's reading order is bottom-to-top relative to InDesign's Layer panel is indeed a key takeaway. It's great to hear that this method worked cleanly for you and produced a proper Order panel flow in Acrobat without needing the more invasive cut/paste workaround that Steve originally detailed back in 2021.

 

It’s also reassuring to note how much more workable this has become since then. InDesign’s evolution in handling accessibility and structure is certainly moving in a better direction.

 

Thanks again for sharing your findings with the group. These kinds of field-tested insights are incredibly valuable. And no rush at all on the Google Workspace info. Look forward to digging into that whenever you're ready!

 

Warmly,

 

Aaron Di Blasi,  <https://www.pmi.org/> PMP

 

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From: Eckelberry, Robin <Robin.Eckelberry at nelnet.net> 
Sent: Monday, April 7, 2025 5:52 PM
To: 'Steve Green' <steve.green at testpartners.co.uk>; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' <athen-list at u.washington.edu>; 'Hayman, Douglass' <dhayman at olympic.edu>; enews at toptechtidbits.com
Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXTERNAL] - InDesign and Reading Order (not tag order)

 

Hi Doug, Steve, and Aaron!

 

Thank you for all of your help. I tested some more on my own and also reached out via WebAIM. 

 

What I found and trialed echoed the Chat GPT note.

 

To be able to have the reading order correct in Acrobat, you have to adjust the order of the Layers in InDesign. The last layer is what will be read first, and the first layer is what will be read last. So yes, ordering from bottom to top in InDesign is what worked for a correct Order panel for me in Acrobat.

 

I'm glad that process has gotten better since 2021!

 

Thanks again!

 

P.S. Aaron I owe you some Google Workspace findings, too. 

 

 

  _____  

From: Top Tech Tidbits
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2025 12:41 PM
To: 'Steve Green'; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network'; 'Hayman, Douglass'; Eckelberry, Robin
Subject: RE: [Athen] [EXTERNAL] - InDesign and Reading Order (not tag order) 

 

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ChatGPT 4.5:

 

Ensuring the correct reading order in PDFs exported from InDesign has evolved, offering more integrated solutions than were available in 2021. Previously, you noted that the reading order in Acrobat's Content panel was determined by the sequence of object creation in InDesign and could only be altered by cutting and pasting objects, potentially disrupting the Articles panel order. Since then, InDesign has introduced features that allow for more precise control over reading order directly within the application.

 

Key Developments:

 

1.	Articles Panel Utilization:

*	The Articles panel in InDesign enables you to define the reading order by organizing content into articles. By dragging and dropping frames and objects into this panel, you can set a logical sequence without altering the page layout. It's crucial to select "Use for Tagging Order in Tagged PDF" in the Articles panel menu to ensure this order is recognized upon export.

2.	Layer Panel Stacking Order:

*	The stacking order of elements in the Layers panel affects the reading order in the exported PDF. Items at the bottom of the Layers panel are read first. Therefore, arranging layers from bottom to top in the desired reading sequence can help control the reading order.  

3.	Threading Text Frames:

*	Linking text frames ensures a continuous and logical flow of text, which is beneficial for maintaining the correct reading order. Threaded text frames are treated as a single story, preserving the intended sequence.  

4.	Anchoring Objects:

*	Anchoring images and other objects within text frames ensures they are read in context with related text. This method integrates non-text elements into the reading flow appropriately.

By implementing these strategies, you can establish the desired reading order within InDesign, reducing the need for post-export adjustments in Acrobat. This integrated approach streamlines the workflow and enhances document accessibility.​

For a visual guide on using the Articles panel to control reading order, you might find the following tutorial helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI2NJomPXBQ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI2NJomPXBQ__;!!G2OgMis!Yq31SoLCuqUlk-_lnnWlOWZY7unnOCMdOE57Wg3LsFQ2E3-8zvl0wVeiGF09NCIzjZe0jp-sHjnhVvz9Prh_RLb_Ow$> .

 

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From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu <mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu> > On Behalf Of Steve Green via athen-list
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2025 12:29 PM
To: Hayman, Douglass <dhayman at olympic.edu <mailto:dhayman at olympic.edu> >; Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu <mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu> >; Eckelberry, Robin <Robin.Eckelberry at nelnet.net <mailto:Robin.Eckelberry at nelnet.net> >
Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXTERNAL] - InDesign and Reading Order (not tag order)

 

In 2021, I wrote a short training course on using InDesign to create PDFs. At that time, I wrote the following:

 

*	The reading order in the Content panel is set by the order in which objects are created.
*	It cannot be changed except by deleting an object and adding it back in, in which case it becomes the last item in the reading order. This can easily be done using the following steps on each object in turn:

*	Select the object.
*	Press Ctrl+X to delete it.
*	Press Ctrl+V to paste it back in.
*	Reposition it if necessary.
*	However, this may break the order in the Articles panel.

 

It is possible that something has changed since then, but I doubt it. It if has, do let me know.

 

Since you would be deleting and re-adding complete text frames, this should be much faster than moving individual lines in Acrobat. Obviously, creating content in the correct order would be best, but this can be really difficult.

 

Alternatively, you can use Acrobat’s Reading Order Tool to group all the lines in each paragraph. You would still need to put the paragraphs in the right order in the Content panel, but again it’s faster and less error-prone than moving individual lines.

 

Steve Green

Managing Director

Test Partners Ltd

 

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu <mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu> > On Behalf Of Hayman, Douglass via athen-list
Sent: 03 April 2025 16:56
To: Eckelberry, Robin <Robin.Eckelberry at nelnet.net <mailto:Robin.Eckelberry at nelnet.net> >; Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu <mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu> >
Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXTERNAL] - InDesign and Reading Order (not tag order)

 

Robin,

 

If you don’t get a helpful answer to this here on ATHEN, you may want to try the webaim list or the PDF Accessibility group on Facebook as both have seasoned InDesign/PDF accessibility people discussing such things.

 

Doug Hayman

IT Accessibility Coordinator

Information Technology

Olympic College

 <mailto:dhayman at olympic.edu> dhayman at olympic.edu

(360) 475-7632

 

 

 

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu <mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman12.u.washington.edu> > On Behalf Of Eckelberry, Robin via athen-list
Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2025 8:51 AM
To: ATHEN <athen-list at u.washington.edu <mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu> >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] - [Athen] InDesign and Reading Order (not tag order)

 

CAUTION: This email came from a non-OC system or external source. Beware of phishing and social engineering!

 

Hello ATHEN!

 

I've looked through the archives, and I'm wondering if folks have experience with InDesign and the Reading Order Panel/Content Panel specifically in Acrobat?

 

Arranging the content in InDesign using the Articles panel creates the PDF with the correct tag order, but the reading order and content order (essential for reading technologies like text-to-speech, Read Aloud in Edge, for example), are completely out of order in Acrobat.

 

Does anyone know of a way to address this issue at the InDesign level? 

 

With how InDesign exports every line as a separate content box (as opposed to grouping all lines of a paragraph together in one content box, for example), that creates a ton of containers in the Content panel in Acrobat, so having to adjust the order in the Content panel in Acrobat will be no easy feat.

 

Thanks!

Robin

 

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Robin Eckelberry

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