<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<style type="text/css" style="display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} </style>
</head>
<body dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="elementToProof">
Hi Kevin,</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="elementToProof">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="elementToProof">
Thank you so much for bringing this up! I am absolutely planning on compensating any UX tester's time in some way. I don't think it's ethical otherwise. I'm still a long ways out from being able to move forward with testing, but I want to do it right. I like
the idea of a tiered approach to testing, and I think Uber vouchers would be really valued by our students. I think this has opened up an idea for how I might be able to make testing possible more quickly.</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="elementToProof">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="elementToProof">
And to <b>all </b>the folks who have offered feedback - thank you, this has been extremely helpful! I'm still sorting through the emails for specifics, but overall I'm seeing that math in particular is heavily dependent on what AT someone is using, what browser,
plugins, etc. I think this is particularly highlighting the downside of trying to make our archives "generically accessible" - that's simply not a thing and we can only ever get "close enough" and work with people individually for where there are gaps.</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="elementToProof">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="elementToProof">
I'm a little discouraged that integrals aren't being read aloud correctly. I created those by manually entering them into the Word Equation Editor and matched the PDF as exactly as I could - for example, if the integral didn't have a sub/superscript, then I
picked the integral that didn't have that added. I'm currently mystified but hopefully as I dig I'll figure out where I went wrong.</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="elementToProof">
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="elementToProof">
Thank you all again,</div>
<div class="elementToProof" id="Signature">
<div style="font-family: Aptos, Aptos_EmbeddedFont, Aptos_MSFontService, Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);" class="elementToProof">
<br>
</div>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="elementToProof">
Sagan Wallace</p>
<p style="margin: 0in; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class="elementToProof">
<i>they/them</i> </p>
</div>
<div id="appendonsend"></div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> athen-list <athen-list-bounces@mailman22.u.washington.edu> on behalf of Deborah Armstrong via athen-list <athen-list@u.washington.edu><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 24, 2025 4:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kevin Andrews <ka791@georgetown.edu>; Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list@u.washington.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Athen] Review a document?</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<style>
<!--
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math"}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri}
@font-face
{font-family:Aptos}
p.x_MsoNormal, li.x_MsoNormal, div.x_MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif}
a:link, span.x_MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline}
span.x_gmailsignatureprefix
{}
span.x_EmailStyle20
{font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;
color:windowtext}
.x_MsoChpDefault
{}
@page WordSection1
{margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in}
div.x_WordSection1
{}
ol
{margin-bottom:0in}
ul
{margin-bottom:0in}
-->
</style>
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word">
<p><span style="color:#D73F09">[This email originated from outside of OSU. Use caution with links and attachments.]</span></p>
<div>
<div class="x_WordSection1">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I would add that asking blind and visually impaired people to test is valuable work, but I personally think you ask for volunteers first, then pay those who contribute significantly. For every blind student
I’ve had who knows how to use their access technology, there are ten who do not. I’m in a community college, so probably at a university you’d see users with greater A.T. skills.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">And if your budget or circumstances don’t allow cash payments, consider amazon gift cards or some other compensation.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I have done a ton of testing for Google, Ebay, Facebook, Amazon and Meta because I live in Silicon Valley and am considered a valued tester. But I always get paid in Amazon, Target or Walmart cards, or free
Uber rides, and never with cash. And these are big for-profit companies who you’d think would have resources to pay me real money. But I’m fine with all the other payment methods. Doesn’t require a W9! Silicon valley is pricey so those Uber vouchers are an
especially nice payment!</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> </span></p>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> athen-list <athen-list-bounces@mailman22.u.washington.edu>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Kevin Andrews via athen-list<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 24, 2025 4:50 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Wallace, Sagan <Sagan.Wallace@oregonstate.edu>; Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list@u.washington.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Athen] Review a document?</span></p>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p>Hi Sagan,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thanks for reaching out and for the care you're clearly putting into improving accessibility in your library archives. It’s heartening to see someone thinking not just about compliance, but about actual usability and experience for blind readers.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>That said, I do want to gently flag that asking blind screen reader users to review multiple documents and provide UX feedback, without compensation, can feel like being asked to donate our expertise and lived experience. This is valuable labor, and when
done well, it’s not just “feedback,” it’s user testing, consulting, and accessibility evaluation work.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If your institution is able to allocate funding or formalize this into a paid opportunity (or even a structured pilot with clear parameters), I imagine you'd get more consistent, thorough feedback, and it would set a strong precedent around valuing access
labor.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Totally understand if you’re early in the process or navigating constraints, and I appreciate you opening the door. Just wanted to be candid about how this sort of request might land.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Wishing you all the best with the remediation work—this kind of deep accessibility work is sorely needed.</p>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 2:38<span style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"> </span>PM Wallace, Sagan via athen-list <<a href="mailto:athen-list@u.washington.edu">athen-list@u.washington.edu</a>> wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black">Hello all,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black">This is a big ask, so I'm sending this out to a few lists. Would anyone who is an experienced screen reader be willing to review one of the documents linked below, and give feedback on how effectively
they were remediated? If you were a visually-impaired researcher using our archives and downloaded this material, would you be satisfied? Frustrated?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black">Background: I am working on remediating our library archives for screen reader accessibility. These are theses and dissertations, most of which are STEM-heavy. All of our documents are PDF scans
and we are converting them to HTML or EPUB. I am finding it's hard to make some remediation decisions because we are remediating to have these available for any researcher who encounters them, rather than being able to tailor them to an individual reader's
needs. I'm confident in our ability to do a basic correction, but I want these documents to be actually pleasant for our future reader to use. Hopefully I'll be able to conduct an actual UX test with our patrons, but until then I'd love some general feedback.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black">Each folder has the original PDF, and our output file:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="x_MsoNormal" style="color:black"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/oregonstate.box.com/s/ys5o4xtdmwlwkkejej9rvwyi06he1h66__;!!A-B3JKCz!EL1mkNTPQBDXzBmyXbaFrBzqe0pGgfaOVAt3X0Nv4KBwSED5Z4ZZbIjpRa7324eYRQw3spXwgldzzBda1VEoMvflXiyEMhNVh-4$" originalsrc="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/oregonstate.box.com/s/ys5o4xtdmwlwkkejej9rvwyi06he1h66__;!!A-B3JKCz!EL1mkNTPQBDXzBmyXbaFrBzqe0pGgfaOVAt3X0Nv4KBwSED5Z4ZZbIjpRa7324eYRQw3spXwgldzzBda1VEoMvflXiyEMhNVh-4$" target="_blank" title="https://oregonstate.box.com/s/ys5o4xtdmwlwkkejej9rvwyi06he1h66">Example
of a math-heavy PDF converted to HTML</a></span></li></ul>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<ul type="circle">
<li class="x_MsoNormal" style="color:black"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Math was made using the Word equation editor. I'm particularly curious how equation 104 on page 77 is, since that was made using MathPix.</span></li></ul>
</ul>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="x_MsoNormal" style="color:black"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/oregonstate.box.com/s/67packz54fb96vnxwgp3h07lon1fdxck__;!!A-B3JKCz!EL1mkNTPQBDXzBmyXbaFrBzqe0pGgfaOVAt3X0Nv4KBwSED5Z4ZZbIjpRa7324eYRQw3spXwgldzzBda1VEoMvflXiyEXXCk0uE$" originalsrc="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/oregonstate.box.com/s/67packz54fb96vnxwgp3h07lon1fdxck__;!!A-B3JKCz!EL1mkNTPQBDXzBmyXbaFrBzqe0pGgfaOVAt3X0Nv4KBwSED5Z4ZZbIjpRa7324eYRQw3spXwgldzzBda1VEoMvflXiyEXXCk0uE$" target="_blank" title="https://oregonstate.box.com/s/67packz54fb96vnxwgp3h07lon1fdxck">Document
with lots of footnotes</a>, converted to EPUB</span></li></ul>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<ul type="circle">
<li class="x_MsoNormal" style="color:black"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">In particular, how is the navigation back and forth between the end notes and the main text?</span></li></ul>
</ul>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="x_MsoNormal" style="color:black"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/oregonstate.box.com/s/6u0po6y3qmtcyc4co3zjtxobvq1cjgle__;!!A-B3JKCz!EL1mkNTPQBDXzBmyXbaFrBzqe0pGgfaOVAt3X0Nv4KBwSED5Z4ZZbIjpRa7324eYRQw3spXwgldzzBda1VEoMvflXiyEeoQ8B3E$" originalsrc="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/oregonstate.box.com/s/6u0po6y3qmtcyc4co3zjtxobvq1cjgle__;!!A-B3JKCz!EL1mkNTPQBDXzBmyXbaFrBzqe0pGgfaOVAt3X0Nv4KBwSED5Z4ZZbIjpRa7324eYRQw3spXwgldzzBda1VEoMvflXiyEeoQ8B3E$" target="_blank" title="https://oregonstate.box.com/s/6u0po6y3qmtcyc4co3zjtxobvq1cjgle">PDF
of a poetry book</a>, converted to EPUB</span></li></ul>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<ul type="circle">
<li class="x_MsoNormal" style="color:black"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I haven't been able to figure out how to maintain the formatting and page breaks, but I don't think keeping it as PDF is the answer.</span></li></ul>
</ul>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<li class="x_MsoNormal" style="color:black"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/oregonstate.box.com/s/2uhr3tul3p9ibxnhz1xflsga6gqokzlm__;!!A-B3JKCz!EL1mkNTPQBDXzBmyXbaFrBzqe0pGgfaOVAt3X0Nv4KBwSED5Z4ZZbIjpRa7324eYRQw3spXwgldzzBda1VEoMvflXiyEYxNX__Q$" originalsrc="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/oregonstate.box.com/s/2uhr3tul3p9ibxnhz1xflsga6gqokzlm__;!!A-B3JKCz!EL1mkNTPQBDXzBmyXbaFrBzqe0pGgfaOVAt3X0Nv4KBwSED5Z4ZZbIjpRa7324eYRQw3spXwgldzzBda1VEoMvflXiyEYxNX__Q$" target="_blank" title="https://oregonstate.box.com/s/2uhr3tul3p9ibxnhz1xflsga6gqokzlm">Scan
of a typewritten document from 1874</a>, converted to EPUB</span></li></ul>
</div>
<div>
<ul type="disc">
<ul type="circle">
<li class="x_MsoNormal" style="color:black"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">In this one I'm trying to balance maintaining the original formatting, while making the difficult-to-read text audible. We have a lot of documents written in cursive that will need to
be corrected.</span></li></ul>
</ul>
</div>
<div id="x_m_-4880804834759685819Signature">
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black">Thank you for any support, and I hope you have a wonderful week!</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black">Best,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:black"> </span></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Sagan Wallace</span></p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><i><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black; background:white">they/them</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black; background:white"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Library Accessibility Manager</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:black">Oregon State University Libraries & Press</span></p>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
athen-list mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:athen-list@mailman22.u.washington.edu" target="_blank">athen-list@mailman22.u.washington.edu</a><br>
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/mailman22.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list__;!!A-B3JKCz!EL1mkNTPQBDXzBmyXbaFrBzqe0pGgfaOVAt3X0Nv4KBwSED5Z4ZZbIjpRa7324eYRQw3spXwgldzzBda1VEoMvflXiyEynqE3s4$" originalsrc="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/mailman22.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list__;!!A-B3JKCz!EL1mkNTPQBDXzBmyXbaFrBzqe0pGgfaOVAt3X0Nv4KBwSED5Z4ZZbIjpRa7324eYRQw3spXwgldzzBda1VEoMvflXiyEynqE3s4$" target="_blank">http://mailman22.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list</a></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><br clear="all">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span class="x_gmailsignatureprefix">-- </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">Best Regards,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">Kevin Andrews</span></p>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="color:#888888">Electronic and Information Technology Accessibility Coordinator </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="color:#888888">University Information Services <br>
Georgetown University </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>