[Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

Adina Mulliken via athen-list athen-list at u.washington.edu
Thu Jul 10 19:09:38 PDT 2025

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This is off the topic of the request for an accessible version, but it made me think of another question. For the first time, APA is putting out an electronic version of their manual that libraries can subscribe to and provide access to a whole campus. During APA's uncaptioned APA Style Manual Demo Webinar<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StJnYr98j70> about the new product, at minute 25:10, the first question from their viewers is about accessibility of the product. APA's response is that they’ve created the product with accessibility in mind but they are still working on a VPAT. Does anyone know anything more about accessibility of this product? My university is starting to consider it, but we don’t have a trial yet.

Thanks!

Adina Mulliken (she/her)

Associate Professor, Librarian Silberman Social Work and Urban Public Health Library

Hunter College, City University of New York

2180 3rd Ave. New York, NY

Phone 212-396-7665

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu> on behalf of via athen-list <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, July 10, 2025 at 3:01 PM
To: athen-list at u.washington.edu <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: athen-list Digest, Vol 234, Issue 4

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual (via athen-list)
2. Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual
(John Sellmeyer via athen-list)
3. Re: [EXTERNAL *] Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual
(Mark Weiler via athen-list)
4. Re: [EXTERNAL *] Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual
(Susan Kelmer via athen-list)
5. Seeking Braille sources for developmentally delayed adults
(Deborah Armstrong via athen-list)
6. Re: [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL *] Re: Accessible APA Publication
Manual (ELIZABETH KILLINGER via athen-list)
7. Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual
(Susan Kelmer via athen-list)
8. Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual
(Kamran Rasul via athen-list)
9. Re: [EXT] Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual
(ELIZABETH KILLINGER via athen-list)
10. Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual
(Susan Kelmer via athen-list)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 13:38:08 -0600
From: via athen-list <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
To: "'Ho, Joyce Y - $joyceho$'" <joyceho at arizona.edu>, "'Access
Technology Higher Education Network'" <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual
Message-ID: <01a001dbf108$fffdd820$fff98860$@montana.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello, It is in Bookshare, ISBN 9781433832185
Best
George

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu> On Behalf
Of Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho) via athen-list
Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2025 12:50 PM
To: athen-list at u.washington.edu
Subject: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

Hello!

Would anyone happen to have an accessible copy of the following book:

* Title: Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association,
7th Edition
* Publisher: American Psychological Association
* ISBN: 978-1433832178

Thank you!
Joyce

Joyce Ho
Accessible Content and Media Coordinator
Disability Resource Center | The University of Arizona

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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 20:13:31 +0000
From: John Sellmeyer via athen-list <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
To: "Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho)" <joyceho at arizona.edu>, Access Technology
Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual
Message-ID:
<CO6PR20MB3618E9010B2A405F0590AAF9ED49A at CO6PR20MB3618.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

It appears that this is on Bookshare.

Best,

John

John Sellmeyer
Accommodations Coordinator, Office of Accommodations and Accessibility
Adjunt Instructor, Music Department
Marist University
3399 North Road, Poughkeepsie, NY 12601
(845) 575-3274
john.sellmeyer at marist.edu<mailto:john.sellmeyer at marist.edu>
Schedule an appointment with me!<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://outlook.office.com/bookwithme/user/0581c432557b4c819f9c977ba6cd5fd0@marist.edu?anonymous&ep=plink__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnlkyIRWY$ >

[Image of Marist University logo.]

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From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu> On Behalf Of Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho) via athen-list
Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2025 2:50 PM
To: athen-list at u.washington.edu
Subject: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]
Hello!

Would anyone happen to have an accessible copy of the following book:

* Title: Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association, 7th Edition
* Publisher: American Psychological Association
* ISBN: 978-1433832178

Thank you!
Joyce

Joyce Ho
Accessible Content and Media Coordinator
Disability Resource Center | The University of Arizona

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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 21:04:27 +0000
From: Mark Weiler via athen-list <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
To: "kerscher at montana.com" <kerscher at montana.com>, Access Technology
Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu>, "'Ho, Joyce Y
- (joyceho)'" <joyceho at arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXTERNAL *] Re: Accessible APA Publication
Manual
Message-ID:
<YT1PR01MB266772CE8E464EB2073F6DF3D549A at YT1PR01MB2667.CANPRD01.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

When I compare the version available through CELA, which I understand comes through Bookshare, and the EPUB from APA directly, I observe significant differences in quality. CELA has missing figures, no links, and lists that seem to use asterisks. I base my observation on a spot check with JAWS.

I wonder if the one through CELA is actually different than the one through Bookshare? George, can you confirm that in the version from Bookshare, before section 5.2, there is a properly bulleted list that starts with ?When writing about age, exact ages or age ranges??. In the one through CELA, this is a clip of the speech history with JAWS. Notice how it incorrectly starts with an asterisk:

* When writing about age, exact ages or age ranges (e.g., 15-18 years old, 65-80 years old) are more specific than broad categories (e.g., under 18 years
old, over 65 years old; see Section 5.3).

This image shows the corresponding section in the EPUB from CELA.
[Described above.]

This second image is from the same section in a EPUB directly from APA. Notice it uses a bullet and also has a hyperlink.

[Described above]

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu> On Behalf Of via athen-list
Sent: July 9, 2025 3:38 PM
To: 'Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho)' <joyceho at arizona.edu>; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: [EXTERNAL *] Re: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

Hello, It is in Bookshare, ISBN 9781433832185
Best
George

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho) via athen-list
Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2025 12:50 PM
To: athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

Hello!

Would anyone happen to have an accessible copy of the following book:

* Title: Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association, 7th Edition
* Publisher: American Psychological Association
* ISBN: 978-1433832178

Thank you!
Joyce

Joyce Ho
Accessible Content and Media Coordinator
Disability Resource Center | The University of Arizona

* ? Notice: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 22:03:44 +0000
From: Susan Kelmer via athen-list <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
To: Mark Weiler <mweiler at wlu.ca>, Access Technology Higher Education
Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXTERNAL *] Re: Accessible APA Publication
Manual
Message-ID:
<SA3PR03MB7489B601F4F740EEB289B937FB49A at SA3PR03MB7489.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I may sound like a broken record, but Bookshare files are of questionable quality in most circumstances, with a vast array of missing information and a lack of formatting that is normally expected as a standard in an accessible file.

I have been saying this for literally years. I?ve had discussions with Bookshare personnel in different areas of the organization and it is always the same, ?we don?t really have anything to do with that, you will have to talk to someone else,? or some various versions of ?this is what the publisher sent us.? Any of us who work in this field know that there are much better quality materials from publishers directly than we are seeing in Bookshare versions, aka, it would be preferable if the publisher would just give us their PDF files. At least everything starts out in the right place there. And from there, I can create a fully accessible Word or HTML document with all elements included, formatted properly for all types of readers in just a few hours.

Bookshare files are woefully inadequate for most academic uses. It?s fine if you just want to hear a popular novel or something, but for something like this, it needs a massive amount of remediation to become the document it should have been when it was first produced as ?born accessible? by Bookshare.

Susan Kelmer
Alternate Format Production Program Manager
Disability Services
Health and Wellness Services
T 303 735 4836
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ >

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Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message.

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu> On Behalf Of Mark Weiler via athen-list
Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2025 3:04 PM
To: kerscher at montana.com; Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu>; 'Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho)' <joyceho at arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXTERNAL *] Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual

[External email - use caution]

When I compare the version available through CELA, which I understand comes through Bookshare, and the EPUB from APA directly, I observe significant differences in quality. CELA has missing figures, no links, and lists that seem to use asterisks. I base my observation on a spot check with JAWS.

I wonder if the one through CELA is actually different than the one through Bookshare? George, can you confirm that in the version from Bookshare, before section 5.2, there is a properly bulleted list that starts with ?When writing about age, exact ages or age ranges??. In the one through CELA, this is a clip of the speech history with JAWS. Notice how it incorrectly starts with an asterisk:

* When writing about age, exact ages or age ranges (e.g., 15-18 years old, 65-80 years old) are more specific than broad categories (e.g., under 18 years
old, over 65 years old; see Section 5.3).

This image shows the corresponding section in the EPUB from CELA.
[Described above.]

This second image is from the same section in a EPUB directly from APA. Notice it uses a bullet and also has a hyperlink.

[Described above]

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of via athen-list
Sent: July 9, 2025 3:38 PM
To: 'Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho)' <joyceho at arizona.edu<mailto:joyceho at arizona.edu>>; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL *] Re: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

Hello, It is in Bookshare, ISBN 9781433832185
Best
George

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho) via athen-list
Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2025 12:50 PM
To: athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

Hello!

Would anyone happen to have an accessible copy of the following book:

* Title: Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association, 7th Edition
* Publisher: American Psychological Association
* ISBN: 978-1433832178

Thank you!
Joyce

Joyce Ho
Accessible Content and Media Coordinator
Disability Resource Center | The University of Arizona

* ? Notice: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
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------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 22:04:03 +0000
From: Deborah Armstrong via athen-list <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
To: Access Technology Higher Education Network
<athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: [Athen] Seeking Braille sources for developmentally delayed
adults
Message-ID:
<BYAPR10MB33665BCFEEF088CFC1907071B149A at BYAPR10MB3366.namprd10.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Our community college runs a program called Hope for adults with developmental delays. Most of them read at around a third grade level.
The program uses Macs and iPads with lots of online sources to help them improve reading, math, spelling and job readiness. The students also learn crafts, photography and dance. For example, they take many videos and make simple presentations. They do Word Search puzzles and discuss current events.
The program has now gotten several blind students and I've been asked to provide materials for them in Braille.
As a Braille reader myself I do know about some resources. There is for example Seedlings Braille Books for Children, but they only serve children and not adults. There is Braille On Demand from NLS and I've been using my personal account to get free Braille from them, but would like to find another resource.
There are also plenty of resources I know vaguely about for K-12 pupils, but again, they get federal funding to serve kids and not grown-ups.
The content the sighted students work with is highly visual, because it is not academic, so it's impractical to convert and emboss it, and anyway, it is mostly online. I've ended up inventing word search puzzles, but that's about it.
I really know nothing about creating curriculum for developmentally delayed blind adults, and my supervisor reminds me that in alternate media, my job is to convert what students request. However in this situation, I only know they have determined these adults have an average of a third grade reading level and they are demanding Braille. I finally managed to get a list of subjects they were interested in, and of course I sent the folks at Hope a whole list of resources they can purchase, such as books from National Braille press. But since the college has me, an alternate media specialist, they are reluctant to purchase anything.
I suppose I can get things from bookshare and convert them, but I have no idea what is going to work best for these students. I'd like to avoid wasting tons of paper and time on books they cannot read.
The people administering the program know nothing about Braille and I'm still trying to determine if their students can read contracted Braille or it needs to be uncontracted. Everything I've produced so far is uncontracted and was apparently used and welcomed.
I am far more comfortable serving print impaired students in need of academic materials and I really don't know what to do about Hope and the three blind students requesting Braille.
Advice and resources would be appreciated.
--Debee

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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2025 22:28:32 -0400
From: ELIZABETH KILLINGER via athen-list <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
To: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>, Access Technology Higher
Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL *] Re: Accessible APA
Publication Manual
Message-ID:
<CADVA7NEvYGDEEAHKavRRhL6zw9qyqoqb0on-zrcHfa1nqRa_4Q at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I disagree... some books, some publishers are better than others for books
on Bookshare... but some publishers directly upload to bookshare and that's
where they send you if you direct request. No source (even publishers
directly) will provide you perfect accessible copies. Part of our job is
update them for the needs of our students. For a majority of students,
though, bookshare is perfectly fine.

*Elizabeth Killinger*
*Associate Coordinator*

*FIT-ABLE | Office of Disability ServicesFashion Institute of Technology*
David Dubinsky Student Center, A570
Phone: 212.217.4090
Website: fitnyc.edu/fitable

On Wed, Jul 9, 2025, 6:04?PM Susan Kelmer via athen-list <
athen-list at u.washington.edu> wrote:

> I may sound like a broken record, but Bookshare files are of questionable

> quality in most circumstances, with a vast array of missing information and

> a lack of formatting that is normally expected as a standard in an

> accessible file.

>

>

>

> I have been saying this for literally years. I?ve had discussions with

> Bookshare personnel in different areas of the organization and it is always

> the same, ?we don?t really have anything to do with that, you will have to

> talk to someone else,? or some various versions of ?this is what the

> publisher sent us.? Any of us who work in this field know that there are

> much better quality materials from publishers directly than we are seeing

> in Bookshare versions, aka, it would be preferable if the publisher would

> just give us their PDF files. At least everything starts out in the right

> place there. And from there, I can create a fully accessible Word or HTML

> document with all elements included, formatted properly for all types of

> readers in just a few hours.

>

>

>

> Bookshare files are woefully inadequate for most academic uses. It?s fine

> if you just want to hear a popular novel or something, but for something

> like this, it needs a massive amount of remediation to become the document

> it should have been when it was first produced as ?born accessible? by

> Bookshare.

>

>

>

> *Susan Kelmer *

>

> Alternate Format Production Program Manager

>

> Disability Services

>

> Health and Wellness Services

>

> *T* 303 735 4836

>

> *https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$

> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ > *

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> *Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this

> message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please

> notify the sender immediately and delete this message.*

>

>

>

> *From:* athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu> *On

> Behalf Of *Mark Weiler via athen-list

> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 9, 2025 3:04 PM

> *To:* kerscher at montana.com; Access Technology Higher Education Network <

> athen-list at u.washington.edu>; 'Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho)' <

> joyceho at arizona.edu>

> *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXTERNAL *] Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual

>

>

>

> [External email - use caution]

>

>

>

> When I compare the version available through CELA, which I understand

> comes through Bookshare, and the EPUB from APA directly, I observe

> significant differences in quality. CELA has missing figures, no links,

> and lists that seem to use asterisks. I base my observation on a spot

> check with JAWS.

>

>

>

> I wonder if the one through CELA is actually different than the one

> through Bookshare? George, can you confirm that in the version from

> Bookshare, before section 5.2, there is a properly bulleted list that

> starts with ?When writing about age, exact ages or age ranges??. In the

> one through CELA, this is a clip of the speech history with JAWS. Notice

> how it incorrectly starts with an asterisk:

>

>

>

> * When writing about age, exact ages or age ranges (e.g., 15-18 years old,

> 65-80 years old) are more specific than broad categories (e.g., under 18

> years

>

> old, over 65 years old; see Section 5.3).

>

>

>

> This image shows the corresponding section in the EPUB from CELA.

>

> [image: Described above.]

>

>

>

> This second image is from the same section in a EPUB directly from APA.

> Notice it uses a bullet and also has a hyperlink.

>

>

>

> [image: Described above]

>

>

>

> *From:* athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu> *On

> Behalf Of *via athen-list

> *Sent:* July 9, 2025 3:38 PM

> *To:* 'Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho)' <joyceho at arizona.edu>; 'Access Technology

> Higher Education Network' <athen-list at u.washington.edu>

> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL *] Re: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

>

>

>

> Hello, It is in Bookshare, ISBN 9781433832185

>

> Best

>

> George

>

>

>

>

>

> *From:* athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu> *On

> Behalf Of *Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho) via athen-list

> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 9, 2025 12:50 PM

> *To:* athen-list at u.washington.edu

> *Subject:* [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

>

>

>

> Hello!

>

>

>

> Would anyone happen to have an accessible copy of the following book:

>

>

>

> - Title: *Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association*,

> 7th Edition

> - Publisher: American Psychological Association

> - ISBN: 978-1433832178

>

>

>

> Thank you!

>

> Joyce

>

>

>

> *Joyce Ho*

>

> Accessible Content and Media Coordinator

>

> Disability Resource Center | The University of Arizona

>

>

>

>

>

> * ? Notice: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do

> not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and

> know the content is safe.

> _______________________________________________

> athen-list mailing list

> athen-list at mailman22.u.washington.edu

> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mailman22.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbn9X6pX44$

>

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------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 13:28:41 +0000
From: Susan Kelmer via athen-list <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
To: ATHEN-list Mailing List <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual
Message-ID:
<SA3PR03MB748914A2B3C718A7E5240B0EFB48A at SA3PR03MB7489.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I have to remediate everything I get from Bookshare. That is not ?born accessible? in my mind. While it IS our job to provide the format we need for our students, we should have access to at least reasonable quality files from an organization that receives millions of dollars in grants and other government funding. An organization that has convinced publishers that their files are universally usable by a wide swath of disability types. I hold their feet to the fire on this because someone has to. The lack of quality of Bookshare files is embarrassing.

There are missing elements, as Mark pointed out, and it makes it much more difficult to get the correct information to the student. Missing elements in nearly every Bookshare book I?ve ever downloaded include:

* NO understandable heading structure. Anything that is marked as a heading is an H2, and rarely are they correct.
* Missing chapter titles (especially true if the title is in a graphic/visual format).
* Missing page numbers. How does an academic cite material without page numbers?
* Asterisks or other characters used instead of bulleted lists; numbered lists as text rather than formatted as numbered lists.
* Missing graphics/images/visual elements.
* Graphics/images/visual elements without alt text or any type of description.
* Unformatted tables, if they are included at all.
* Useless indexes, tables of contents, and other reference materials as they are links but do not include page number information.
* Copyright information either buried at the end of the document, or missing completely.

If I had $5 for every time I had to locate a hard copy of a book to be able to fully remediate a Bookshare file, I?d be a millionaire. I would rather have a scanned image PDF from ANY source, than a Bookshare file. I can remediate an image-based PDF into a fully accessible format a lot faster than I can ?fix? a poorly formatted Bookshare file (hours instead of days).

Note the elements Mark pointed out as missing. This is a reference manual, it needs to be perfect, it needs to have ALL of its elements in place. How are we supposed to ?fix? that when they are missing from a ?born accessible? file that we are provided from Bookshare? We have to get a hard copy, go through page by page, and fix everything. We don?t have time for that. I will stop complaining about Bookshare when they start doing their job, or at the very least, start providing us with the raw image scans (not text scans) when we ask for it. That would save me thousands of hours each academic year.

Susan Kelmer
Alternate Format Production Program Manager
Disability Services
Health and Wellness Services
T 303 735 4836
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ >

[cid:image001.png at 01DBF166.D6AA8820]

Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message.

From: ELIZABETH KILLINGER <elizabeth_killinger at fitnyc.edu<mailto:elizabeth_killinger at fitnyc.edu>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2025 8:29 PM
To: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu<mailto:Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>>; Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: Re: [EXT] Re: [Athen] [EXTERNAL *] Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual

[External email - use caution]

I disagree... some books, some publishers are better than others for books on Bookshare... but some publishers directly upload to bookshare and that's where they send you if you direct request. No source (even publishers directly) will provide you perfect accessible copies. Part of our job is update them for the needs of our students. For a majority of students, though, bookshare is perfectly fine.

Elizabeth Killinger
Associate Coordinator
FIT-ABLE | Office of Disability Services
Fashion Institute of Technology
David Dubinsky Student Center, A570
Phone: 212.217.4090
Website: fitnyc.edu/fitable<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://fitnyc.edu/fitable__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnHl2XW-k$ >

On Wed, Jul 9, 2025, 6:04?PM Susan Kelmer via athen-list <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>> wrote:
I may sound like a broken record, but Bookshare files are of questionable quality in most circumstances, with a vast array of missing information and a lack of formatting that is normally expected as a standard in an accessible file.

I have been saying this for literally years. I?ve had discussions with Bookshare personnel in different areas of the organization and it is always the same, ?we don?t really have anything to do with that, you will have to talk to someone else,? or some various versions of ?this is what the publisher sent us.? Any of us who work in this field know that there are much better quality materials from publishers directly than we are seeing in Bookshare versions, aka, it would be preferable if the publisher would just give us their PDF files. At least everything starts out in the right place there. And from there, I can create a fully accessible Word or HTML document with all elements included, formatted properly for all types of readers in just a few hours.

Bookshare files are woefully inadequate for most academic uses. It?s fine if you just want to hear a popular novel or something, but for something like this, it needs a massive amount of remediation to become the document it should have been when it was first produced as ?born accessible? by Bookshare.

Susan Kelmer
Alternate Format Production Program Manager
Disability Services
Health and Wellness Services
T 303 735 4836
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ >

[cid:image001.png at 01DBF166.D6AA8820]

Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message.

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Mark Weiler via athen-list
Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2025 3:04 PM
To: kerscher at montana.com<mailto:kerscher at montana.com>; Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>; 'Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho)' <joyceho at arizona.edu<mailto:joyceho at arizona.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXTERNAL *] Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual

[External email - use caution]

When I compare the version available through CELA, which I understand comes through Bookshare, and the EPUB from APA directly, I observe significant differences in quality. CELA has missing figures, no links, and lists that seem to use asterisks. I base my observation on a spot check with JAWS.

I wonder if the one through CELA is actually different than the one through Bookshare? George, can you confirm that in the version from Bookshare, before section 5.2, there is a properly bulleted list that starts with ?When writing about age, exact ages or age ranges??. In the one through CELA, this is a clip of the speech history with JAWS. Notice how it incorrectly starts with an asterisk:

* When writing about age, exact ages or age ranges (e.g., 15-18 years old, 65-80 years old) are more specific than broad categories (e.g., under 18 years
old, over 65 years old; see Section 5.3).

This image shows the corresponding section in the EPUB from CELA.
[Described above.]

This second image is from the same section in a EPUB directly from APA. Notice it uses a bullet and also has a hyperlink.

[Described above]

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of via athen-list
Sent: July 9, 2025 3:38 PM
To: 'Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho)' <joyceho at arizona.edu<mailto:joyceho at arizona.edu>>; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL *] Re: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

Hello, It is in Bookshare, ISBN 9781433832185
Best
George

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho) via athen-list
Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2025 12:50 PM
To: athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

Hello!

Would anyone happen to have an accessible copy of the following book:

* Title: Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association, 7th Edition
* Publisher: American Psychological Association
* ISBN: 978-1433832178

Thank you!
Joyce

Joyce Ho
Accessible Content and Media Coordinator
Disability Resource Center | The University of Arizona

* ? Notice: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
_______________________________________________
athen-list mailing list
athen-list at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at mailman22.u.washington.edu>
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------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 13:37:15 +0000
From: Kamran Rasul via athen-list <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
To: 'Susan Kelmer' <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>, 'Access Technology
Higher Education Network' <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual
Message-ID:
<CH0PR01MB7201AAD2CFCBB71E5B44530CF448A at CH0PR01MB7201.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On a different note, what is going with AccessText Network? They are not the same anymore; I cannot seem to rely on them as much anymore. I miss the old AccessText Network services ?

Anyone having better luck using their services?

[Johns Hopkins University logo]
Kamran Rasul, MEd.
Assistive Technology/Alternate Format Specialist (SDS)
Phone: 410-516-1167
E-mail: krasul1 at jhu.edu<mailto:krasul1 at jhu.edu>
Garland Hall, 1st Floor, Office 135-G
3400 N. Charles Street
Baltimore, MD 21218
Schedule a meeting with Kamran<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/ATC2@live.johnshopkins.edu/bookings/__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnFY7BQrg$ >

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via athen-list
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2025 9:29 AM
To: ATHEN-list Mailing List <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

External Email - Use Caution

I have to remediate everything I get from Bookshare. That is not ?born accessible? in my mind. While it IS our job to provide the format we need for our students, we should have access to at least reasonable quality files from an organization that receives millions of dollars in grants and other government funding. An organization that has convinced publishers that their files are universally usable by a wide swath of disability types. I hold their feet to the fire on this because someone has to. The lack of quality of Bookshare files is embarrassing.

There are missing elements, as Mark pointed out, and it makes it much more difficult to get the correct information to the student. Missing elements in nearly every Bookshare book I?ve ever downloaded include:

* NO understandable heading structure. Anything that is marked as a heading is an H2, and rarely are they correct.
* Missing chapter titles (especially true if the title is in a graphic/visual format).
* Missing page numbers. How does an academic cite material without page numbers?
* Asterisks or other characters used instead of bulleted lists; numbered lists as text rather than formatted as numbered lists.
* Missing graphics/images/visual elements.
* Graphics/images/visual elements without alt text or any type of description.
* Unformatted tables, if they are included at all.
* Useless indexes, tables of contents, and other reference materials as they are links but do not include page number information.
* Copyright information either buried at the end of the document, or missing completely.

If I had $5 for every time I had to locate a hard copy of a book to be able to fully remediate a Bookshare file, I?d be a millionaire. I would rather have a scanned image PDF from ANY source, than a Bookshare file. I can remediate an image-based PDF into a fully accessible format a lot faster than I can ?fix? a poorly formatted Bookshare file (hours instead of days).

Note the elements Mark pointed out as missing. This is a reference manual, it needs to be perfect, it needs to have ALL of its elements in place. How are we supposed to ?fix? that when they are missing from a ?born accessible? file that we are provided from Bookshare? We have to get a hard copy, go through page by page, and fix everything. We don?t have time for that. I will stop complaining about Bookshare when they start doing their job, or at the very least, start providing us with the raw image scans (not text scans) when we ask for it. That would save me thousands of hours each academic year.

Susan Kelmer
Alternate Format Production Program Manager
Disability Services
Health and Wellness Services
T 303 735 4836
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ >

[cid:image005.png at 01DBF17E.359CE690]

Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message.

From: ELIZABETH KILLINGER <elizabeth_killinger at fitnyc.edu<mailto:elizabeth_killinger at fitnyc.edu>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2025 8:29 PM
To: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu<mailto:Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>>; Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: Re: [EXT] Re: [Athen] [EXTERNAL *] Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual

[External email - use caution]

I disagree... some books, some publishers are better than others for books on Bookshare... but some publishers directly upload to bookshare and that's where they send you if you direct request. No source (even publishers directly) will provide you perfect accessible copies. Part of our job is update them for the needs of our students. For a majority of students, though, bookshare is perfectly fine.

Elizabeth Killinger
Associate Coordinator
FIT-ABLE | Office of Disability Services
Fashion Institute of Technology
David Dubinsky Student Center, A570
Phone: 212.217.4090
Website: fitnyc.edu/fitable<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://fitnyc.edu/fitable__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnHl2XW-k$ >

On Wed, Jul 9, 2025, 6:04?PM Susan Kelmer via athen-list <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>> wrote:
I may sound like a broken record, but Bookshare files are of questionable quality in most circumstances, with a vast array of missing information and a lack of formatting that is normally expected as a standard in an accessible file.

I have been saying this for literally years. I?ve had discussions with Bookshare personnel in different areas of the organization and it is always the same, ?we don?t really have anything to do with that, you will have to talk to someone else,? or some various versions of ?this is what the publisher sent us.? Any of us who work in this field know that there are much better quality materials from publishers directly than we are seeing in Bookshare versions, aka, it would be preferable if the publisher would just give us their PDF files. At least everything starts out in the right place there. And from there, I can create a fully accessible Word or HTML document with all elements included, formatted properly for all types of readers in just a few hours.

Bookshare files are woefully inadequate for most academic uses. It?s fine if you just want to hear a popular novel or something, but for something like this, it needs a massive amount of remediation to become the document it should have been when it was first produced as ?born accessible? by Bookshare.

Susan Kelmer
Alternate Format Production Program Manager
Disability Services
Health and Wellness Services
T 303 735 4836
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ >

[cid:image005.png at 01DBF17E.359CE690]

Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message.

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Mark Weiler via athen-list
Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2025 3:04 PM
To: kerscher at montana.com<mailto:kerscher at montana.com>; Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>; 'Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho)' <joyceho at arizona.edu<mailto:joyceho at arizona.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXTERNAL *] Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual

[External email - use caution]

When I compare the version available through CELA, which I understand comes through Bookshare, and the EPUB from APA directly, I observe significant differences in quality. CELA has missing figures, no links, and lists that seem to use asterisks. I base my observation on a spot check with JAWS.

I wonder if the one through CELA is actually different than the one through Bookshare? George, can you confirm that in the version from Bookshare, before section 5.2, there is a properly bulleted list that starts with ?When writing about age, exact ages or age ranges??. In the one through CELA, this is a clip of the speech history with JAWS. Notice how it incorrectly starts with an asterisk:

* When writing about age, exact ages or age ranges (e.g., 15-18 years old, 65-80 years old) are more specific than broad categories (e.g., under 18 years
old, over 65 years old; see Section 5.3).

This image shows the corresponding section in the EPUB from CELA.
[Described above.]

This second image is from the same section in a EPUB directly from APA. Notice it uses a bullet and also has a hyperlink.

[Described above]

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of via athen-list
Sent: July 9, 2025 3:38 PM
To: 'Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho)' <joyceho at arizona.edu<mailto:joyceho at arizona.edu>>; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL *] Re: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

Hello, It is in Bookshare, ISBN 9781433832185
Best
George

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho) via athen-list
Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2025 12:50 PM
To: athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

Hello!

Would anyone happen to have an accessible copy of the following book:

* Title: Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association, 7th Edition
* Publisher: American Psychological Association
* ISBN: 978-1433832178

Thank you!
Joyce

Joyce Ho
Accessible Content and Media Coordinator
Disability Resource Center | The University of Arizona

* ? Notice: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
_______________________________________________
athen-list mailing list
athen-list at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at mailman22.u.washington.edu>
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------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 09:43:44 -0400
From: ELIZABETH KILLINGER via athen-list <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
To: Kamran Rasul <krasul1 at jhu.edu>, Access Technology Higher Education
Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXT] Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual
Message-ID:
<CADVA7NFTE41JMOw=PsPDoj+Fm+j0x9OR7O_hit89k8KDG=u=rw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

They went offline and from my understanding their archive was not brought
back when they went back online. They are also publisher run now...

*Elizabeth Killinger*
*Associate Coordinator*

*FIT-ABLE | Office of Disability ServicesFashion Institute of Technology*
David Dubinsky Student Center, A570
Phone: 212.217.4090
Website: fitnyc.edu/fitable

On Thu, Jul 10, 2025, 9:38?AM Kamran Rasul via athen-list <
athen-list at u.washington.edu> wrote:

> On a different note, what is going with AccessText Network? They are not

> the same anymore; I cannot seem to rely on them as much anymore. I miss the

> old AccessText Network services ?

>

>

>

> Anyone having better luck using their services?

>

>

>

> [image: Johns Hopkins University logo]

>

> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/maps/search/3400*N.*Charles*Street**A0D*0A*Baltimore,*MD*21218?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrKyUlKysr!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnTxXTHUc$ >

>

> Kamran Rasul, MEd.

>

> Assistive Technology/Alternate Format Specialist (SDS)

>

> Phone: 410-516-1167

>

> E-mail: krasul1 at jhu.edu

>

> Garland Hall, 1st Floor, Office 135-G

>

> 3400 N. Charles Street

> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/maps/search/3400*N.*Charles*Street**A0D*0A*Baltimore,*MD*21218?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrKyUlKysr!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnTxXTHUc$ >

>

> Baltimore, MD 21218

> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/maps/search/3400*N.*Charles*Street**A0D*0A*Baltimore,*MD*21218?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrKyUlKysr!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnTxXTHUc$ >

>

> Schedule a meeting with Kamran

> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/ATC2@live.johnshopkins.edu/bookings/__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnFY7BQrg$ >

>

>

>

> *From:* athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu> *On

> Behalf Of *Susan Kelmer via athen-list

> *Sent:* Thursday, July 10, 2025 9:29 AM

> *To:* ATHEN-list Mailing List <athen-list at u.washington.edu>

> *Subject:* Re: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

>

>

>

>

> * External Email - Use Caution *

>

>

>

>

>

> I have to remediate everything I get from Bookshare. That is not ?born

> accessible? in my mind. While it IS our job to provide the format we need

> for our students, we should have access to at least reasonable quality

> files from an organization that receives millions of dollars in grants and

> other government funding. An organization that has convinced publishers

> that their files are universally usable by a wide swath of disability

> types. I hold their feet to the fire on this because someone has to. The

> lack of quality of Bookshare files is embarrassing.

>

>

>

> There are missing elements, as Mark pointed out, and it makes it much more

> difficult to get the correct information to the student. Missing elements

> in nearly every Bookshare book I?ve ever downloaded include:

>

>

>

> - NO understandable heading structure. Anything that is marked as a

> heading is an H2, and rarely are they correct.

> - Missing chapter titles (especially true if the title is in a

> graphic/visual format).

> - Missing page numbers. How does an academic cite material without

> page numbers?

> - Asterisks or other characters used instead of bulleted lists;

> numbered lists as text rather than formatted as numbered lists.

> - Missing graphics/images/visual elements.

> - Graphics/images/visual elements without alt text or any type of

> description.

> - Unformatted tables, if they are included at all.

> - Useless indexes, tables of contents, and other reference materials

> as they are links but do not include page number information.

> - Copyright information either buried at the end of the document, or

> missing completely.

>

>

>

> If I had $5 for every time I had to locate a hard copy of a book to be

> able to fully remediate a Bookshare file, I?d be a millionaire. I would

> rather have a scanned image PDF from ANY source, than a Bookshare file. I

> can remediate an image-based PDF into a fully accessible format a lot

> faster than I can ?fix? a poorly formatted Bookshare file (hours instead of

> days).

>

>

>

> Note the elements Mark pointed out as missing. This is a reference

> manual, it needs to be perfect, it needs to have ALL of its elements in

> place. How are we supposed to ?fix? that when they are missing from a

> ?born accessible? file that we are provided from Bookshare? We have to get

> a hard copy, go through page by page, and fix everything. We don?t have

> time for that. I will stop complaining about Bookshare when they start

> doing their job, or at the very least, start providing us with the raw

> image scans (not text scans) when we ask for it. That would save me

> thousands of hours each academic year.

>

>

>

> *Susan Kelmer *

>

> Alternate Format Production Program Manager

>

> Disability Services

>

> Health and Wellness Services

>

> *T* 303 735 4836

>

> *https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$

> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ > *

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> *Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this

> message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please

> notify the sender immediately and delete this message.*

>

>

>

> *From:* ELIZABETH KILLINGER <elizabeth_killinger at fitnyc.edu>

> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 9, 2025 8:29 PM

> *To:* Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>; Access Technology Higher

> Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu>

> *Subject:* Re: [EXT] Re: [Athen] [EXTERNAL *] Re: Accessible APA

> Publication Manual

>

>

>

> [External email - use caution]

>

>

>

> I disagree... some books, some publishers are better than others for books

> on Bookshare... but some publishers directly upload to bookshare and that's

> where they send you if you direct request. No source (even publishers

> directly) will provide you perfect accessible copies. Part of our job is

> update them for the needs of our students. For a majority of students,

> though, bookshare is perfectly fine.

>

>

>

> *Elizabeth Killinger*

> *Associate Coordinator*

>

> *FIT-ABLE | Office of Disability Services Fashion Institute of Technology*

> David Dubinsky Student Center, A570

>

> Phone: 212.217.4090

> Website: fitnyc.edu/fitable

>

>

>

> On Wed, Jul 9, 2025, 6:04?PM Susan Kelmer via athen-list <

> athen-list at u.washington.edu> wrote:

>

> I may sound like a broken record, but Bookshare files are of questionable

> quality in most circumstances, with a vast array of missing information and

> a lack of formatting that is normally expected as a standard in an

> accessible file.

>

>

>

> I have been saying this for literally years. I?ve had discussions with

> Bookshare personnel in different areas of the organization and it is always

> the same, ?we don?t really have anything to do with that, you will have to

> talk to someone else,? or some various versions of ?this is what the

> publisher sent us.? Any of us who work in this field know that there are

> much better quality materials from publishers directly than we are seeing

> in Bookshare versions, aka, it would be preferable if the publisher would

> just give us their PDF files. At least everything starts out in the right

> place there. And from there, I can create a fully accessible Word or HTML

> document with all elements included, formatted properly for all types of

> readers in just a few hours.

>

>

>

> Bookshare files are woefully inadequate for most academic uses. It?s fine

> if you just want to hear a popular novel or something, but for something

> like this, it needs a massive amount of remediation to become the document

> it should have been when it was first produced as ?born accessible? by

> Bookshare.

>

>

>

> *Susan Kelmer *

>

> Alternate Format Production Program Manager

>

> Disability Services

>

> Health and Wellness Services

>

> *T* 303 735 4836

>

> *https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$

> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ > *

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> *Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this

> message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please

> notify the sender immediately and delete this message.*

>

>

>

> *From:* athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu> *On

> Behalf Of *Mark Weiler via athen-list

> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 9, 2025 3:04 PM

> *To:* kerscher at montana.com; Access Technology Higher Education Network <

> athen-list at u.washington.edu>; 'Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho)' <

> joyceho at arizona.edu>

> *Subject:* Re: [Athen] [EXTERNAL *] Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual

>

>

>

> [External email - use caution]

>

>

>

> When I compare the version available through CELA, which I understand

> comes through Bookshare, and the EPUB from APA directly, I observe

> significant differences in quality. CELA has missing figures, no links,

> and lists that seem to use asterisks. I base my observation on a spot

> check with JAWS.

>

>

>

> I wonder if the one through CELA is actually different than the one

> through Bookshare? George, can you confirm that in the version from

> Bookshare, before section 5.2, there is a properly bulleted list that

> starts with ?When writing about age, exact ages or age ranges??. In the

> one through CELA, this is a clip of the speech history with JAWS. Notice

> how it incorrectly starts with an asterisk:

>

>

>

> * When writing about age, exact ages or age ranges (e.g., 15-18 years old,

> 65-80 years old) are more specific than broad categories (e.g., under 18

> years

>

> old, over 65 years old; see Section 5.3).

>

>

>

> This image shows the corresponding section in the EPUB from CELA.

>

> [image: Described above.]

>

>

>

> This second image is from the same section in a EPUB directly from APA.

> Notice it uses a bullet and also has a hyperlink.

>

>

>

> [image: Described above]

>

>

>

> *From:* athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu> *On

> Behalf Of *via athen-list

> *Sent:* July 9, 2025 3:38 PM

> *To:* 'Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho)' <joyceho at arizona.edu>; 'Access Technology

> Higher Education Network' <athen-list at u.washington.edu>

> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL *] Re: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

>

>

>

> Hello, It is in Bookshare, ISBN 9781433832185

>

> Best

>

> George

>

>

>

>

>

> *From:* athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu> *On

> Behalf Of *Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho) via athen-list

> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 9, 2025 12:50 PM

> *To:* athen-list at u.washington.edu

> *Subject:* [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

>

>

>

> Hello!

>

>

>

> Would anyone happen to have an accessible copy of the following book:

>

>

>

> - Title: *Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association*,

> 7th Edition

> - Publisher: American Psychological Association

> - ISBN: 978-1433832178

>

>

>

> Thank you!

>

> Joyce

>

>

>

> *Joyce Ho*

>

> Accessible Content and Media Coordinator

>

> Disability Resource Center | The University of Arizona

>

>

>

>

>

> * ? Notice: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do

> not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and

> know the content is safe.

>

> _______________________________________________

> athen-list mailing list

> athen-list at mailman22.u.washington.edu

> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://mailman22.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/athen-list__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbn9X6pX44$

>

> _______________________________________________

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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 13:46:36 +0000
From: Susan Kelmer via athen-list <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
To: Kamran Rasul <krasul1 at jhu.edu>, ATHEN-list Mailing List
<athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual
Message-ID:
<SA3PR03MB7489368CDA2FAED3092EB89BFB48A at SA3PR03MB7489.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

The ATN that was run by Georgia Tech was shut down April 1 2024. The new iteration is up and live but you need to sign up for a new account. It is not yet the resource it was, but it is there, and I get books through them.

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://accesstext.org/home__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnZXe9ORU$

Susan Kelmer
Alternate Format Production Program Manager
Disability Services
Health and Wellness Services
T 303 735 4836
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ >

[cid:image001.png at 01DBF16E.C259C040]

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From: Kamran Rasul <krasul1 at jhu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2025 7:37 AM
To: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' <athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Accessible APA Publication Manual

[External email - use caution]

On a different note, what is going with AccessText Network? They are not the same anymore; I cannot seem to rely on them as much anymore. I miss the old AccessText Network services ?

Anyone having better luck using their services?

[Johns Hopkins University logo]
Kamran Rasul, MEd.
Assistive Technology/Alternate Format Specialist (SDS)
Phone: 410-516-1167
E-mail: krasul1 at jhu.edu<mailto:krasul1 at jhu.edu>
Garland Hall, 1st Floor, Office 135-G
3400 N. Charles Street
Baltimore, MD 21218
Schedule a meeting with Kamran<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/ATC2@live.johnshopkins.edu/bookings/__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnFY7BQrg$ >

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Susan Kelmer via athen-list
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2025 9:29 AM
To: ATHEN-list Mailing List <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

External Email - Use Caution

I have to remediate everything I get from Bookshare. That is not ?born accessible? in my mind. While it IS our job to provide the format we need for our students, we should have access to at least reasonable quality files from an organization that receives millions of dollars in grants and other government funding. An organization that has convinced publishers that their files are universally usable by a wide swath of disability types. I hold their feet to the fire on this because someone has to. The lack of quality of Bookshare files is embarrassing.

There are missing elements, as Mark pointed out, and it makes it much more difficult to get the correct information to the student. Missing elements in nearly every Bookshare book I?ve ever downloaded include:

* NO understandable heading structure. Anything that is marked as a heading is an H2, and rarely are they correct.
* Missing chapter titles (especially true if the title is in a graphic/visual format).
* Missing page numbers. How does an academic cite material without page numbers?
* Asterisks or other characters used instead of bulleted lists; numbered lists as text rather than formatted as numbered lists.
* Missing graphics/images/visual elements.
* Graphics/images/visual elements without alt text or any type of description.
* Unformatted tables, if they are included at all.
* Useless indexes, tables of contents, and other reference materials as they are links but do not include page number information.
* Copyright information either buried at the end of the document, or missing completely.

If I had $5 for every time I had to locate a hard copy of a book to be able to fully remediate a Bookshare file, I?d be a millionaire. I would rather have a scanned image PDF from ANY source, than a Bookshare file. I can remediate an image-based PDF into a fully accessible format a lot faster than I can ?fix? a poorly formatted Bookshare file (hours instead of days).

Note the elements Mark pointed out as missing. This is a reference manual, it needs to be perfect, it needs to have ALL of its elements in place. How are we supposed to ?fix? that when they are missing from a ?born accessible? file that we are provided from Bookshare? We have to get a hard copy, go through page by page, and fix everything. We don?t have time for that. I will stop complaining about Bookshare when they start doing their job, or at the very least, start providing us with the raw image scans (not text scans) when we ask for it. That would save me thousands of hours each academic year.

Susan Kelmer
Alternate Format Production Program Manager
Disability Services
Health and Wellness Services
T 303 735 4836
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ >

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Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message.

From: ELIZABETH KILLINGER <elizabeth_killinger at fitnyc.edu<mailto:elizabeth_killinger at fitnyc.edu>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2025 8:29 PM
To: Susan Kelmer <Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu<mailto:Susan.Kelmer at colorado.edu>>; Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: Re: [EXT] Re: [Athen] [EXTERNAL *] Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual

[External email - use caution]

I disagree... some books, some publishers are better than others for books on Bookshare... but some publishers directly upload to bookshare and that's where they send you if you direct request. No source (even publishers directly) will provide you perfect accessible copies. Part of our job is update them for the needs of our students. For a majority of students, though, bookshare is perfectly fine.

Elizabeth Killinger
Associate Coordinator
FIT-ABLE | Office of Disability Services
Fashion Institute of Technology
David Dubinsky Student Center, A570
Phone: 212.217.4090
Website: fitnyc.edu/fitable<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://fitnyc.edu/fitable__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnHl2XW-k$ >

On Wed, Jul 9, 2025, 6:04?PM Susan Kelmer via athen-list <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>> wrote:
I may sound like a broken record, but Bookshare files are of questionable quality in most circumstances, with a vast array of missing information and a lack of formatting that is normally expected as a standard in an accessible file.

I have been saying this for literally years. I?ve had discussions with Bookshare personnel in different areas of the organization and it is always the same, ?we don?t really have anything to do with that, you will have to talk to someone else,? or some various versions of ?this is what the publisher sent us.? Any of us who work in this field know that there are much better quality materials from publishers directly than we are seeing in Bookshare versions, aka, it would be preferable if the publisher would just give us their PDF files. At least everything starts out in the right place there. And from there, I can create a fully accessible Word or HTML document with all elements included, formatted properly for all types of readers in just a few hours.

Bookshare files are woefully inadequate for most academic uses. It?s fine if you just want to hear a popular novel or something, but for something like this, it needs a massive amount of remediation to become the document it should have been when it was first produced as ?born accessible? by Bookshare.

Susan Kelmer
Alternate Format Production Program Manager
Disability Services
Health and Wellness Services
T 303 735 4836
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.colorado.edu/disabilityservices__;!!LAh5qUgpm5Y!GQXLE09nLtavm_kJM_4aDZeFCnA-hoVCTy6-tlqTfcGUWo0Z6aI5bU41eqoolOVoFN4KRCy_SDP8aruXkSKwESRPXNbnBZWGVlw$ >

[cid:image001.png at 01DBF16E.C259C040]

Due to the nature of electronic communication, the security of this message cannot be guaranteed. If you?ve received this email in error please notify the sender immediately and delete this message.

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Mark Weiler via athen-list
Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2025 3:04 PM
To: kerscher at montana.com<mailto:kerscher at montana.com>; Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>; 'Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho)' <joyceho at arizona.edu<mailto:joyceho at arizona.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Athen] [EXTERNAL *] Re: Accessible APA Publication Manual

[External email - use caution]

When I compare the version available through CELA, which I understand comes through Bookshare, and the EPUB from APA directly, I observe significant differences in quality. CELA has missing figures, no links, and lists that seem to use asterisks. I base my observation on a spot check with JAWS.

I wonder if the one through CELA is actually different than the one through Bookshare? George, can you confirm that in the version from Bookshare, before section 5.2, there is a properly bulleted list that starts with ?When writing about age, exact ages or age ranges??. In the one through CELA, this is a clip of the speech history with JAWS. Notice how it incorrectly starts with an asterisk:

* When writing about age, exact ages or age ranges (e.g., 15-18 years old, 65-80 years old) are more specific than broad categories (e.g., under 18 years
old, over 65 years old; see Section 5.3).

This image shows the corresponding section in the EPUB from CELA.
[Described above.]

This second image is from the same section in a EPUB directly from APA. Notice it uses a bullet and also has a hyperlink.

[Described above]

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of via athen-list
Sent: July 9, 2025 3:38 PM
To: 'Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho)' <joyceho at arizona.edu<mailto:joyceho at arizona.edu>>; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL *] Re: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

Hello, It is in Bookshare, ISBN 9781433832185
Best
George

From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Ho, Joyce Y - (joyceho) via athen-list
Sent: Wednesday, July 9, 2025 12:50 PM
To: athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>
Subject: [Athen] Accessible APA Publication Manual

Hello!

Would anyone happen to have an accessible copy of the following book:

* Title: Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association, 7th Edition
* Publisher: American Psychological Association
* ISBN: 978-1433832178

Thank you!
Joyce

Joyce Ho
Accessible Content and Media Coordinator
Disability Resource Center | The University of Arizona

* ? Notice: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
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