[Athen] [EXTERNAL *] Re: Review a document?
Mark Weiler via athen-list
athen-list at u.washington.edu
Wed Jul 23 19:52:22 PDT 2025
Sagan, and others,
I have a question around the math ML. Do you notice the problem I do?
First, I’m not an expert with advanced math or with interacting with math with a screen reader. So, I can only describe what I did and make observations and ask questions.
I’m using JAWS 2025.2506.170 with the latest Chrome. Here’s formula 7, as it is expressed visually. Notice the ∫ symbol (pronounced “integral”:
[Formula 7 from the HTML document shared]
I can hear the content when using JAWS with speech. But I’m not sure what a complex math equation is supposed to sound like when spoken. Here’s a linear run through (down key) of the content as JAWS speech history:
SimpleSpeak, Terse
cap p sub n, of, open x comma, y, close equals rho raised to the n minus 1 power d z 1 d z 2 dot dot dot d z sub n mu, open x comma, z 1 close times mu, open, z 1, comma, z 2 close times dot dot dot mu open, z sub n minus 1 end sub comma, y close MathContent ‑
SimpleSpeak, Medium
cap p sub n, of, open paren x comma, y, close paren is equal to rho raised to the n minus 1 power d z sub 1 d z sub 2 dot dot dot d z sub n mu, open paren, x comma, z sub 1 close paren times mu open paren, z sub 1, comma, z sub 2 close paren times dot dot dot mu open paren, z sub n minus 1 end sub comma, y close paren MathContent ‑
SimpleSpeak, Verbose
cap p sub n, of, open paren x comma, y, close paren is equal to rho raised to the n minus 1 power d z sub 1 d z sub 2 dot dot dot d z sub n mu, open paren, x comma, z sub 1 close paren times mu open paren, z sub 1, comma, z sub 2 close paren times dot dot dot mu open paren z sub n minus 1 end subscript comma, y close paren MathContent ‑
Summary:
I see an integral sign in the browser’s visual equation but don’t see it in the JAWS speech output. I see “power” instead. Shouldn’t “integral” be spoken?
I then open it in Math Viewer, and step through parts of the equation, as shown in the image below. I definitely don’t see the integral signs in this representation!
[Described above]
To check if JAWS or Chrome can’t read ∫, I then went to the Freedom Scientific MathML sample page<https://support.freedomscientific.com/content/html/jawshq/MathML-Samples.html> and stepped through an example that has an integral (see the heading, Semantics)
Here’s what I hear when reading it straight through:
Simple Speak, verbose
“the integral from 1 to t of fraction, double-struck italic d x, over x, end fraction MathContent –“
The image below is a screen shot of the Semantics formula from the Freedom Scientific MathML. The math viewer is open and shows the integral sign.
[Described above]
So, Sagan: Do you notice the discrepancy that I do? Why does the Freedom Scientific page get its Integral sign rendered in both JAWS and the browser but the dissertation only renders it visually in the browser?
Mark
From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu> On Behalf Of Karthikeyan, Ramya via athen-list
Sent: July 23, 2025 7:37 PM
To: kerscher at montana.com; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' <athen-list at u.washington.edu>; 'Wallace, Sagan' <Sagan.Wallace at oregonstate.edu>; Joshua Hori <jhori at ucdavis.edu>
Subject: [EXTERNAL *] Re: [Athen] Review a document?
Hey Joshua,
I randomly tested some of the Math equations including the matrix on page 77 with NVDA version 2023.3.3 with MathCat addon and it seemed to work for me..I haven't had a chance to update to the latest version yet, not sure if that makes a difference.. I must say it did not work with NVDA 2024.4.2 on a different laptop which did not have the MathCat addon installed..maybe that is the issue..
Best,
Ramya
Ramya Karthikeyan
Alternative Format Specialist
UCLA Center for Accessible Education
310-825-1501 (CAE line)
http://www.cae.ucla.edu/
________________________________
From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu>> on behalf of Joshua Hori via athen-list <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2025 4:19 PM
To: kerscher at montana.com<mailto:kerscher at montana.com> <kerscher at montana.com<mailto:kerscher at montana.com>>; 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>; 'Wallace, Sagan' <Sagan.Wallace at oregonstate.edu<mailto:Sagan.Wallace at oregonstate.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Athen] Review a document?
Hello George,
You bring up a great point! I am aware of the issues with VoiceOver and math but I’m having a better time with VoiceOver than NVDA.
NVDA is silent on math equations, but math characters not within an equation are reading fine.
Best,
Joshua Hori
Accessible Technology Coordinator
Information Educational Technology
Academic Technology Services
50 Hutchison Dr.
Davis, CA 95616
530-752-2439
Schedule a meeting via Calendly<https://calendly.com/d/ytt-hsj-vbn>
From: kerscher at montana.com<mailto:kerscher at montana.com> <kerscher at montana.com<mailto:kerscher at montana.com>>
Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2025 at 2:51 PM
To: Joshua Hori <jhori at ucdavis.edu<mailto:jhori at ucdavis.edu>>, 'Access Technology Higher Education Network' <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>, 'Wallace, Sagan' <Sagan.Wallace at oregonstate.edu<mailto:Sagan.Wallace at oregonstate.edu>>
Subject: RE: [Athen] Review a document?
Hello,
Voiceover has known issues with math. I would suggest testing with NVDA or Jaws with MathCAT. You may find you do not then need MathJax.
Best
George
From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu>> On Behalf Of Joshua Hori via athen-list
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2025 3:25 PM
To: Wallace, Sagan <Sagan.Wallace at oregonstate.edu<mailto:Sagan.Wallace at oregonstate.edu>>; Access Technology Higher Education Network <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Athen] Review a document?
Hello Sagan,
I would suggest using Mathjax and LaTeX<https://math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5020/mathjax-basic-tutorial-and-quick-reference> instead of the MicroSoft Equation Editor. I’ve found an equation that isn’t reading properly. On page 3, second paragraph, there is an XN which isn’t reading aloud properly, but the next equation Xi does read correctly. When using mathjax for the first time, you will need to edit the equation configuration to make the math viewable. Right click (Shift+F10) on the equation, choose math renderer, and switch from SVG (inaccessible) to HTML+CSS (accessible).
You will need to add a Mathjax redirect in the HTML headers, but then you could type out all equations in LaTeX (using Mathpix), and wrap the LaTeX with “$$<LaTeX>$$” for display math and “/$<LaTeX>$/” for inline math.
Have you tried mathkicker.ai for math conversions? It’s really good.
The ePub with the footnotes at the end of the textbook was nice and didn’t interfere with reading. The typed document had lots of acronyms, but was understandable.
Only tested with VoiceOver.
Best,
Joshua Hori
Accessible Technology Coordinator
Information Educational Technology
Academic Technology Services
50 Hutchison Dr.
Davis, CA 95616
530-752-2439
Schedule a meeting via Calendly<https://calendly.com/d/ytt-hsj-vbn>
From: athen-list <athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list-bounces at mailman22.u.washington.edu>> on behalf of Wallace, Sagan via athen-list <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Date: Wednesday, July 23, 2025 at 11:39 AM
To: athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu> <athen-list at u.washington.edu<mailto:athen-list at u.washington.edu>>
Subject: [Athen] Review a document?
Hello all,
This is a big ask, so I'm sending this out to a few lists. Would anyone who is an experienced screen reader be willing to review one of the documents linked below, and give feedback on how effectively they were remediated? If you were a visually-impaired researcher using our archives and downloaded this material, would you be satisfied? Frustrated?
Background: I am working on remediating our library archives for screen reader accessibility. These are theses and dissertations, most of which are STEM-heavy. All of our documents are PDF scans and we are converting them to HTML or EPUB. I am finding it's hard to make some remediation decisions because we are remediating to have these available for any researcher who encounters them, rather than being able to tailor them to an individual reader's needs. I'm confident in our ability to do a basic correction, but I want these documents to be actually pleasant for our future reader to use. Hopefully I'll be able to conduct an actual UX test with our patrons, but until then I'd love some general feedback.
Each folder has the original PDF, and our output file:
* Example of a math-heavy PDF converted to HTML<https://oregonstate.box.com/s/ys5o4xtdmwlwkkejej9rvwyi06he1h66>
* Math was made using the Word equation editor. I'm particularly curious how equation 104 on page 77 is, since that was made using MathPix.
* Document with lots of footnotes<https://oregonstate.box.com/s/67packz54fb96vnxwgp3h07lon1fdxck>, converted to EPUB
* In particular, how is the navigation back and forth between the end notes and the main text?
* PDF of a poetry book<https://oregonstate.box.com/s/6u0po6y3qmtcyc4co3zjtxobvq1cjgle>, converted to EPUB
* I haven't been able to figure out how to maintain the formatting and page breaks, but I don't think keeping it as PDF is the answer.
* Scan of a typewritten document from 1874<https://oregonstate.box.com/s/2uhr3tul3p9ibxnhz1xflsga6gqokzlm>, converted to EPUB
* In this one I'm trying to balance maintaining the original formatting, while making the difficult-to-read text audible. We have a lot of documents written in cursive that will need to be corrected.
Thank you for any support, and I hope you have a wonderful week!
Best,
Sagan Wallace
they/them
Library Accessibility Manager
Oregon State University Libraries & Press
* ⚠ Notice: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman22.u.washington.edu/pipermail/athen-list/attachments/20250724/1f37d02b/attachment-0001.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image002.png
Type: image/png
Size: 115957 bytes
Desc: image002.png
URL: <http://mailman22.u.washington.edu/pipermail/athen-list/attachments/20250724/1f37d02b/attachment-0003.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image005.png
Type: image/png
Size: 143181 bytes
Desc: image005.png
URL: <http://mailman22.u.washington.edu/pipermail/athen-list/attachments/20250724/1f37d02b/attachment-0004.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image007.png
Type: image/png
Size: 84777 bytes
Desc: image007.png
URL: <http://mailman22.u.washington.edu/pipermail/athen-list/attachments/20250724/1f37d02b/attachment-0005.png>
More information about the athen-list
mailing list